Showing posts with label predestination. Show all posts
Showing posts with label predestination. Show all posts

Question 225 - James White and Beckwith

February 18, 2010

  • Question 225 - James White and Beckwith


    Three things: Opinion on James White, conversions, apologetics/study Bible

    Greetings Dr. Sungenis.  First, what is the matter with Dr. James White?  I went to his website and read some of his arguments to try and understand his thinking.  I think I succeeded in understanding his failure.  After reading for a couple of hours, the word "heresy" began ringing in my head so much that it gave me a headache.  Like G.K. Chesterton said, heresy comes about when you try and divide the whole truth into your own half-truth.  For example, one of White's debates with you about justification, he kept referring to your view, the "Roman" view, as "man-centered", and his supposed "Biblical" view as "God-centered".  I'm no theologian or scholar, but what rings true to me is that justification and salvation depend on both God and man, a "dynamic" relationship like you explain on Pg. 191 of Not by Bread Alone.  I believe that is the natural understanding a reasonable person would arrive at if reading John's Gospel and the New Testament in context (actually, the entire Bible).  In other words, it is the "whole" truth.  I'm not saying the Bible is always easy to understand, but to come away with the understanding "God has selected (no, created) me for heaven or hell, and there's nothing I can do about it" after reading the Scriptures just seems alien and superimposed.  Anyway, that's my "argument" from intuition.

    White's problem is that he can't handle the whole truth.  He can't handle the idea that both God and man choose (not God or man), even though a consistent reading of Scripture requires this view.  I could go on and on (and I'm sure so could you) about the damage this half-truth does to other major beliefs such as the Incarnation and the Mystical Body of Christ (predestination without free will turns these beliefs into a mere charade cooked up by God).  Accepting a belief and understanding it are two separate matters.  Arius likely didn't understand the full truth of the Trinity, so he rejected it.  But not fully understanding it is not a reason for rejecting it.

    Again and again, White "divides and conquers" the truth.  I watched the full debate you had with him on papal infallibility.  He divides the full truth into his own two realms: "sola ecclesia" and "sola scriptura".  In the end, White's errors are due to false logic: a false application of the Law of Excluded Middle ("either this or that"); this illogic permeates his work; you see a predictable pattern, and his errors end up only amplifying the real truth when you take a step back and realize it. (Actually, you do realize White's error in logic yourself in the last line of the note on Pg. 190 of NBBA: "Consistent logic demands that both the Lord's Supper and Calvary are anticipated by John 6, but neither is negated.").  I think if you have the opportunity in future debates with Dr. White, you should stress Dr. White's overall error in thinking to the audience, in addition to the particular misinterpretations of the text.

    Next, do you have an opinion on Dr. Francis Beckwith joining the Catholic Church?  Maybe other successful Protestant apologists like William Lane Craig will follow suit.  Perhaps even major intellects like N.T. Wright and J.P. Moreland?  Ok, that may be a stretch.  But what do all these names have in common?  They all reject Calvinism.  James White should pay better attention.

    R. Sungenis: Brenden, what White fails to see is that the Catholic Church had already dealt with these issues many centuries ago. It condemned both “man-centered” views of Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. It also dealt with the predestinarian extremes of Lucidus, of Gottschalk, of Wycliffe, of Luther and Calvin. The truth is somewhere in the middle and nobody has quite figured out what that middle is. We know what we can’t say, but we are not quite sure all that we can say. White, and men of his generation, think they have to reinvent the wheel when it comes to theology, failing to see that many men before them have struggled with these issues. The fact remains that the Church is the final authority on this topic, and it has chosen to say that it is beyond our comprehension. White, however, because he has separated himself from the Church, thinks he, as an individual man in the street, has the answer. When this happens, all kinds of extremes will result, and one of those extremes is the position that God predestines men to heaven and hell and that man’s free will does not influence that choice. This position seems logical to White because he can’t figure out how God’s predestination can fit with man’s free will, so he thinks he only has one option – get rid of free will. Other Protestants, however, attempt to solve the problem by getting rid of predestination. The Catholic Church says they are both wrong, and rightly so.

    As for Beckwith and company, we will continue to see an influx of Protestants coming to the Catholic Church for theological reasons, and we will continue to see a lot of people leave the Catholic Church because of the heresies that are being taught by many Catholic leaders who ignore the truths they have received from the historic Catholic Church. But there is one thing that keeps people like Beckwith inside the Church – they’ve been through all the muck and confusion of Protestantism, and they will never go back. At least in the Catholic Church we know that the truth exists, we just have to find it above all the heretics in the Church who try to hide it from us.

Question 30 - Fr. Most and the "Infrustrable" Will of God

December 13, 2007

  • Question 30 - Fr. Most and the "Infrustrable" Will of God



    I use Father Most's word, infrustrable, which he intends to be inclusive of secondary freedom, which I suppose is opposed to "irresistible" which would be without consideration of man's freedom or will.   In his book Grace, Predestination and the Universal Salvific Will, he states: "116. God is always able to move us infallibly or infrustrably. It is clear from Scripture that God always can, if He wishes, so move a man so that at least as a matter of fact the man does not resist, but instead consents." and "We do not deny that man is truly free even under infrustrable physical movements (in secondary freedom). Nor do we deny that man makes decisions in secondary freedom. Yet, precisely because a man is unable to "distinguish himself" in regard to reprobation, God cannot, within the Thomistic system, simultaneously reprobate any man and still say He wills the salvation of that same man.82 Furthermore, as we shall see below,83 in the system of the older Thomists, God becomes, in the full sense, the author of sin."

    In one sense, this position holds that God will not reprobate infrustrably with secondary freedom, as that would violate the universal salvific will to save all men, but, God does move some men infrustrably, but not ordinarily. Passages such as 2 Chronicles 30:12 and Proverbs 21:1 do seem to imply that God will move men, much more powerfully then the temporal positioning for seeking mentioned in Act 26-27.  But does this, or can this, amount to a final salvific movement? Does God sometimes save man, not just temporally move man, infrustrably? I would be very interested in your opinion on this matter.   

    Sincere regards,

    John
    R. Sungenis: John, right before Fr. Most died a few years ago, he and I were in the midst of discussing this topic through an exchange of letters. Although Fr. Most was a great scholar and I respected him much, I disagreed to some extent with his formulations about God’s grace and man’s free will. I found his views on the subject a little too mechanical and artificial. He seemed to be inventing terms and procedures for both God and man that did not hit the real problem.  At one point, Fr. Most was attributing “negative free will” to man. You get a hint of that idea above when Fr. Most says, “Yet, precisely because a man is unable to “distinguish himself’ in regard to reprobation.” He believed that man didn’t really choose for God by his own free will, since that would be an act independent of God, and therefore not possible. Rather, Fr. Most said man did not really make a choice. The best man could do is be neutral (theologically speaking), and then God would sweep him up by grace (even though on the outside it looked like man was making a decision for God). Fr. Most was trying to save free will theology from being a work of man in an effort to agree with Paul that salvation was not of works. I told him that his formulation was not what either Scripture or the Church has taught, and that his terms were complicating the matter more than helping. When the Church and Scripture ascribe free will to man, it is genuine free will and is not “neutral” in any sense. Moreover, free will makes no infringement on the truth that salvation is by grace and not works, since the ability to make a choice is a gift of grace. We would be in violation of the works principle only if we attempted to obligate God by our choice for him. Since God responds by grace, not by debt, we need not worry about the works problem. I think Fr. Most’s error came from a faulty understanding of Paul’s teaching against works for justification. Paul did not mean that man could not work; he only meant that work done outside of God’s grace would not procure justification.
    I believe it is very important to keep man’s free will independent in the fullest sense (including reprobation) since it will allow God to both desire the salvation of the man and also reprobate him if he chooses against God. Once you make God’s desire contingent upon whether God can apply so much force upon the man that he, in Fr. Most’s words “does not resist, but instead consents,” then the question becomes, “why does God not apply the same force upon every man so that it results in the man’s consent?” and thus, Fr. Most has not escaped the charge of making God the “author of sin.” The only answer to this, I believe, is that there is no force God can apply to a man so that it is guaranteed the man will “not resist but consent. ”The best God can do without violating either Himself or the man, is to give man more grace and more evidence so that the man can make the decision, from his own free will, for good instead of evil. One means by which this extra grace and evidence will come to a man is if another individual prays for him.
    Passages such as 2 Chronicles 30:12 and Proverbs 21:1 don’t prove the case for Fr. Most, any more than John 6:37 (“All that the Father gives me will come to me”) proves the case for Calvinism. Implicit in a reading of 2 Chr 30:12 and Pro 21:1, as well as John 6:37, is that there has already been a free will action by man that has already been taken into account but just not stated in the verse (e.g., John 5:40). We get a more explicit indication of this dual action in a passage such as Exodus 9:34 and 10:1 wherein the former says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, yet the latter says that God hardened his heart. The implication, if read at face value, is that both God and Pharaoh are involved in this hardening but that God cannot be blamed for putting Pharaoh in the hardened state, or even initiating it.  It is Pharoah alone who initiated it, but God uses it as he wishes, even increasing the hardness, and can do so without any infringement against Pharaoh’s free will. Hence, Proverbs 21:1 is not teaching that the king is like a puppet in the hands of God, rather, that as the king makes his own free will decisions in his “heart,” God knows what those free will decisions will be and uses them to his advantage. Actually, the Hebrew of Pro 21:1 says “to wherever He desires he extends it,” as opposed to “turns it.”(From the Hebrew NATSAH, meaning “to stretch out, spread out, bend” etc).
    I think that one of the most important things we need to maintain whenever discussions of this type occur is the integrity of God. All things are possible for God (Mt 19:26) but there is one thing that is impossible even for God, and that is that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Hence, any schema that we develop to iron out the difficulties of God’s will and man’s will cannot put God in a compromising position wherein His integrity is under suspicion. His integrity is certainly violated when systems such as Calvinism or Zwinglism inevitably make God the author of sin, but I think we also  run the risk of infringing on God’s integrity in Fr. Most’s system, since he sometimes increases God’s will against man so that the man is guaranteed to consent, as well as sometimes weakening man’s will against God so that the man is considered as not making a genuine free will decision and is understood as “neutral.”
    Those are my thoughts on the matter. I hope they help iron it out for you. Thanks so much for the generous donation and your encouraging post script!

Fr. Most's theology on salvation

Fr. Most's theology on salvation

Dear Mr. Sungenis,

I'm one chapter away from finishing your book How Can I Get To Heaven -- I've thoroughly enjoyed it and feel that I've learned a great deal about the Bible's and Catholic Church's teaching (their being one in the same, of course) regarding justification, predestination, etc. Thank you for your hard work.

I find myself in disagreement with some of the positions you take and champion these days, but I am truly appreciative of your excellent works of Catholic apologetics. I own all three "Not By . . ." books, your CASB commentary on Matthew, and the "Heaven" book. I look forward to reading all of them, and others that you publish in the future.

Regarding predestination, I'm wondering if you have you read the late Fr. William Most's work: Grace, Predestination and the Salvific Will of God: New Answers to Old Questions

If so, what did you think? What do you think of Fr. Most's work in general?

R. Sungenis: Michael, Fr. Most was a very good conservative theologian. I especially was appreciative of his work on biblical inerrancy. He was vilified in the Catholic liberal circles for his tireless work in this important area. But regarding his work on soteriology, just before he died, Fr. Most and I were in some heated battles by letter. We probably exchanged about half a dozen letters, but then he died suddenly (I hope it wasn't because of me!). I took exception to his view of grace. He was teaching a sort of "negative acceptance" of God in an effort to protect us from exercising free will beyond God's will. It turned out that he was saying that "if we don't refuse, then we are accepting," but he wouldn't allow us to directly accept God because he thought that would infringe on God's will and make our salvation a matter of works. I told him the Church never taught such a thing, and neither did Scripture. Our wills work in accord with God's will, and our positive acceptance of him is never considered an infringment upon God's will nor a work of debt or a work outside of grace. I also told him that the Council of Trent was against his novel approach, especially in Chapters 4-5 in Session 6 regarding prevenient grace and man's free will.